Extracting maps with texmod legal? - Guild Wars Forums

Sjeng · Nov 15, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Hello Gaile/Anet,
I've got a question:

I'm updating the Collector Finder tool again, for GW:EN this time, and so far, I've managed to make maps of all aboveground locations by means of screenshots of explored maps.
I'm having trouble though gathering explored maps of the dungeons, because of the following reasons:
- When doing a dungeon, I'm usually in a party, that doesn't want to wait/waste time exploring and clearing the entire level just so I can make a screenshot.
- I don't have enough time to do it all alone
- The map gets cluttered with red dots
- GW doesn't "save" progress in underground exploration.
- I'm not allowed to copy maps from Wiki.
I've asked the community for help, but I'm getting none.
So my solution would be trying to extract the maps from the game with TexMod. Then I'd add text in them with dungeon name and level, the collector's location and what he collects.

The question now is: Am I allowed to do this? Is it legal?
Any help would be welcome, I really want to finish this project asap, so the community can benefit from it.

Thanks in advance,
Sjeng

sykoone · Nov 15, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Since texmod itself is deemed safe to use by Anet, I see no reason why you couldn't use it to download the map images.

pkodyssey · Nov 15, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Download away. Anet wont have a problem with it unless you try to do something to exploit something or make something work in an unintended way. That is a far cry from creating a reference work.

Sjeng · Nov 15, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Well, the files are alreay on my harddisk, so I'm not downloading anything really, but that's a technicality.

It's more the fact that I'm going to be using them in the tool as a reference to the location of the collectors that I'm concerned about.
If I had to guess, I think it's not a big deal, since there ins't really a difference between mapping by means of screenshots or simply extracting them. The latter is just a lot easier to do ^^

Antheus · Nov 15, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

You can extract them - but you may not redistribute them.

Textures in game are original art, and as such protected IP.

Quote:

since there ins't really a difference between mapping by means of screenshots or simply extracting them

Actually, there is. Screenshot mechanism is provided for your use. Extracting the actual artwork however isn't. It's the difference between going to museum and taking a photograph of a painting, or taking a painting itself.

If you wish to redistribute textures, you'll need permission from Anet.

Think of it this way: How would Blizzard feel, if you ripped WoW's models from their data packs, and used them somewhere else? Models are exactly the same as textures captured by textmod.

Fair use covers personal use, but not redistribution in any form.

Sjeng · Nov 15, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I think I'll make an example of the endresult of the collector finder maps and ask Anet if they agree.
I could include some sort of disclaimer at the starting screen of the tool, and some sort of notice on all extracted maps perhaps...

Or maybe there's someone who'd be willing to fully explore, clear, and screen all first level dungeon maps for me zoomed in maximally on the minimap ^^;;

TheRaven · Nov 15, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I'd be willing to team up with you for dungeon exploration if you want to go that route. Exploring dungeons is always fun and there are so many that I haven't finished yet.

As far as the textmod question is concerned, I don't know the legal answer there. I'd suggest contacting the mod makers, Mystical Chaos and ask them for permission.

The Meth · Nov 15, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Just like texmod itself, it technically goes against part of the EULA, however just like texmod Anet probably won't care as long as you aren't trying to sell it for something, using them for another game, developing a hack or anything.

Antheus · Nov 15, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Just like texmod itself, it technically goes against part of the EULA, however just like texmod Anet probably won't care as long as you aren't trying to sell it for something, using them for another game, developing a hack or anything.

EULA is not the problem, worst case, your account gets banned.

Distributing extracted textures is intellectual property violation, and that one is covered by real laws, which are exercised daily. You need permission to distribute that from copyright holders, which would be either Anet or NCSoft.

The Meth · Nov 15, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

EULA is not the problem, worst case, your account gets banned.
Distributing extracted textures is intellectual property violation, and that one is covered by real laws, which are exercised daily. You need permission to distribute that from copyright holders, which would be either Anet or NCSoft.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer so don't consider me to be the authority on this subject. If I turn out to be wrong and Anet sues you for a million dollars, don't look to me.

I believe this would probably fall under Fair Use. Fair use is what allows you, for example, to quote from a speech or a book without getting the creators permission. What figures into deciding whether it is fair use is its usage, the amount of content copied in comparison to the whole, and the what effect your actions may have on the sales of Guild Wars itself.

1. You are using it in a project that is provided to help those who purchased Guild wars and already have access to said maps. You are not doing this for profit. The use to someone who does not own Guild Wars is nothing. So you pass this test. There is a good chance this could be qualified under usage for teaching purposes (you are helping a player learn from the game) which further strengthens your position.

2. You are copying only a very small part of the content. It is allowed to take screenshots of other similar content (overground maps), and it is allowed to take screenshots of underground maps (with the problems of the red dots, for example). By copying a few maps directly you avoid the red dots problem which improves the usability of the maps. So you aren't violating this standard.

3. You aren't selling a product that supersedes Guild Wars itself, you are providing a service to Guild Wars players. As long as you aren't distributing an amount of data that someone without Guild Wars could download your project and recreate Guild Wars themselves without paying for the game, you have not impacted Guild Wars sales.

So you are covered by law, but the EULA still forbids it, in which case my prior statement comes into effect.

Of course permission from Anet would make any use of it completely legit. I'm pretty sure Gaile or Anet support could give you permission. However, as far as I know the most they could do is get you on is EULA violation in which case you can lose your Guild Wars account. The fact that they aren't holding this against everyone who use texmod says that they aren't going to single you out for anything. Anet DOES still own the textures even when you have put them online, and they can request that you take them down at any time.

Sjeng · Nov 15, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Okay, here's an example of how it would look:

I added a copyright notice just in case. I hope Anet can tell me if that's OK.

Kattar · Nov 15, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

"As a general rule of thumb, we don't mind if you do things like this to make your own playing experience more fun. Some people really like to mod, and we recognize that this can often be a valuable learning tool. When you're doing it, though, keep in mind that we ask that you don't use our content to mod other games. Please do not attempt to extract anything from your GW.dat with the intent to use it in a mod for another game or project. Also keep in mind that we can't support any changes you make.

In other words, if you try to make some changes and your game crashes, don't contact support because there really isn't anything they will be able to do for you. Make sure you have your disks handy to reinstall

In case anyone was concerned about this reply, keep in mind that alterations that people make to their own .dat files will not affect the play experience of others. All of that important data is stored server side, so any changes that would be able to be made are purely cosmetic. For instance, if someone re-textures their sword to look like a gigantic pickle, they will be the only one to see this change. You won't start seeing people wielding pickle swords running around in random arena any time soon

Also keep in mind that we are always interested to see what stuff you guys come up with. If you do something exceptionally cool that you feel would really benefit the community as a whole, don't be afraid to let us know about it." --Image:UserEmilyDiehlStar.gif Emily Diehl (talk)

From http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Texmod

So, no, nothing with texmod is illegal. Just don't call them when you mess something up. Gaile says so here:

"To all modders: It's important to note that the parameters concerning the use of third-party programs do still apply. We cannot condone the use of such programs, and we cannot support the accounts of those who may be negatively impacted in using such programs. That's called the If it eats your hard drive and blows up your refrigerator, don't call us policy.

Honestly, though, as previously stated, it is unlikely that we would actively pursue or action those who use such programs in a positive manner, that is, those whose only interest is creating benign mods of our games. Keep in mind that occasionally people get creative and might bring up the use of a harmless program to attempt to mask other harmful activities. We see that with other situations, such as where they say "But I was only using an alternative OS, why was I blocked?" and we discover they are using major bot programs.

If you feel that this creates a "mixed message," then I guess we should discuss that concern. I can understand where the strict "Don't do that" is clearer than "We can't say you can do that, but we won't take action if you do choose to do it." There are some cases where it's not black and white. One example that comes to mind is the use of emulators to play Guild Wars. We develop only for the PC, but others play on other systems and that's totally ok. However, if they develop difficulties, our Support Team is not available to help them resolve those issues. So we don't prohibit the alternative, we simply decline to support it.

What I want to say above all about this matter is that if you're going to mod, have fun, but do stick with the benign and positive uses of the programs and create mods that impact the game only in ways that are fun and harmless. If there's more information to share, I will do so as soon as it becomes available to me." -- Gaile

sykoone · Nov 15, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Perhaps easier than using texmod to extract the maps, would be to run a no-fog mod and take screenshots as usual. That way you're not pulling the original texture, and should be clear of any legal issues.

Sjeng · Nov 16, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sykoone

Perhaps easier than using texmod to extract the maps, would be to run a no-fog mod and take screenshots as usual. That way you're not pulling the original texture, and should be clear of any legal issues.

You wouldn't happen to know where I can get one of those right?

Sounds even easier than scrolling though thousands of textures with texmod.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Nov 16, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Note: I am not a lawyer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

6. CONTENT AND MEMBER CONDUCT
(b) Rights in Content. (...) NC Interactive and its related Game Content Providers grant to Members the right to use the Game Content for noncommercial, personal purposes, including in connection with creating noncommercial fan fiction or fan web sites regarding the same. However, you acknowledge and agree that you shall not reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly perform, or transmit any Game Content (...)

My interpretation of this would be that you are allowed to use graphics from the game in a way like described in the OP.

However, I am still of the opinion, that strictly speaking the use of TexMod itself is a breach of the EULA, because (I don't know how often I quoted those paragraphs):

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

3. LICENSE TO USE
You may not (...) (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, (...) (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement.

7. OFFICIAL SERVICE
(...)You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive (...)

However, as was mentioned above, Anet tolerates the use of TexMod, as long as no-one uses it to break something.

malko050987 · Nov 16, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

And hey, if you're still up for exploring the dungeons, I'm in as well

PM me in-game, and if I'm not busy, I'll come along for any of the dungeons except Slavers xD

samanoskeake · Nov 17, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Think of it this way: How would Blizzard feel, if you ripped WoW's models from their data packs, and used them somewhere else? Models are exactly the same as textures captured by textmod.

It's weird you mention that, after I just finish uploading these new WoW models to GMOD 10. (Half-Life 2 Mod)

It's perfectly legal for some crap like that, but you can't sell it, you can distribute it, and you can't talk trash on it.

So, feel free to take the map files. Just don't give 'em away. (You can employ them into a program though)

Nov 15, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36	#1
Sjeng Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in my GH Guild: Limburgse Jagers [LJ] Profession: W/	Extracting maps with texmod legal? Hello Gaile/Anet, I've got a question: I'm updating the Collector Finder tool again, for GW:EN this time, and so far, I've managed to make maps of all aboveground locations by means of screenshots of explored maps. I'm having trouble though gathering explored maps of the dungeons, because of the following reasons: - When doing a dungeon, I'm usually in a party, that doesn't want to wait/waste time exploring and clearing the entire level just so I can make a screenshot. - I don't have enough time to do it all alone - The map gets cluttered with red dots - GW doesn't "save" progress in underground exploration. - I'm not allowed to copy maps from Wiki. I've asked the community for help, but I'm getting none. So my solution would be trying to extract the maps from the game with TexMod. Then I'd add text in them with dungeon name and level, the collector's location and what he collects. The question now is: Am I allowed to do this? Is it legal? Any help would be welcome, I really want to finish this project asap, so the community can benefit from it. Thanks in advance, Sjeng

Nov 15, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24	#12
Kattar EXCESSIVE FLUTTERCUSSING Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: SMS (lolgw2placeholder) Profession: Me/	"As a general rule of thumb, we don't mind if you do things like this to make your own playing experience more fun. Some people really like to mod, and we recognize that this can often be a valuable learning tool. When you're doing it, though, keep in mind that we ask that you don't use our content to mod other games. Please do not attempt to extract anything from your GW.dat with the intent to use it in a mod for another game or project. Also keep in mind that we can't support any changes you make. In other words, if you try to make some changes and your game crashes, don't contact support because there really isn't anything they will be able to do for you. Make sure you have your disks handy to reinstall In case anyone was concerned about this reply, keep in mind that alterations that people make to their own .dat files will not affect the play experience of others. All of that important data is stored server side, so any changes that would be able to be made are purely cosmetic. For instance, if someone re-textures their sword to look like a gigantic pickle, they will be the only one to see this change. You won't start seeing people wielding pickle swords running around in random arena any time soon Also keep in mind that we are always interested to see what stuff you guys come up with. If you do something exceptionally cool that you feel would really benefit the community as a whole, don't be afraid to let us know about it." --Image:UserEmilyDiehlStar.gif Emily Diehl (talk) From http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Texmod So, no, nothing with texmod is illegal. Just don't call them when you mess something up. Gaile says so here: "To all modders: It's important to note that the parameters concerning the use of third-party programs do still apply. We cannot condone the use of such programs, and we cannot support the accounts of those who may be negatively impacted in using such programs. That's called the If it eats your hard drive and blows up your refrigerator, don't call us policy. Honestly, though, as previously stated, it is unlikely that we would actively pursue or action those who use such programs in a positive manner, that is, those whose only interest is creating benign mods of our games. Keep in mind that occasionally people get creative and might bring up the use of a harmless program to attempt to mask other harmful activities. We see that with other situations, such as where they say "But I was only using an alternative OS, why was I blocked?" and we discover they are using major bot programs. If you feel that this creates a "mixed message," then I guess we should discuss that concern. I can understand where the strict "Don't do that" is clearer than "We can't say you can do that, but we won't take action if you do choose to do it." There are some cases where it's not black and white. One example that comes to mind is the use of emulators to play Guild Wars. We develop only for the PC, but others play on other systems and that's totally ok. However, if they develop difficulties, our Support Team is not available to help them resolve those issues. So we don't prohibit the alternative, we simply decline to support it. What I want to say above all about this matter is that if you're going to mod, have fun, but do stick with the benign and positive uses of the programs and create mods that impact the game only in ways that are fun and harmless. If there's more information to share, I will do so as soon as it becomes available to me." -- Gaile Last edited by Kattar; Nov 15, 2007 at 06:26 PM // 18:26..

Nov 15, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50	#2
sykoone Jungle Guide Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Mystical Chaos Profession: E/	Since texmod itself is deemed safe to use by Anet, I see no reason why you couldn't use it to download the map images.

Nov 15, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57	#3
pkodyssey Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In a cardboard box with Internet Guild: The Order of the Frozen Tundra (TofT) Profession: N/	Download away. Anet wont have a problem with it unless you try to do something to exploit something or make something work in an unintended way. That is a far cry from creating a reference work.

Nov 15, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58	#4
Sjeng Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in my GH Guild: Limburgse Jagers [LJ] Profession: W/	Well, the files are alreay on my harddisk, so I'm not downloading anything really, but that's a technicality. It's more the fact that I'm going to be using them in the tool as a reference to the location of the collectors that I'm concerned about. If I had to guess, I think it's not a big deal, since there ins't really a difference between mapping by means of screenshots or simply extracting them. The latter is just a lot easier to do ^^

Nov 15, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07	#6
Sjeng Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in my GH Guild: Limburgse Jagers [LJ] Profession: W/	I think I'll make an example of the endresult of the collector finder maps and ask Anet if they agree. I could include some sort of disclaimer at the starting screen of the tool, and some sort of notice on all extracted maps perhaps... Or maybe there's someone who'd be willing to fully explore, clear, and screen all first level dungeon maps for me zoomed in maximally on the minimap ^^;;

Nov 15, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23	#7
TheRaven Desert Nomad Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Guild: Spirit of Elisha Profession: W/	I'd be willing to team up with you for dungeon exploration if you want to go that route. Exploring dungeons is always fun and there are so many that I haven't finished yet. As far as the textmod question is concerned, I don't know the legal answer there. I'd suggest contacting the mod makers, Mystical Chaos and ask them for permission.

Nov 15, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27	#8
The Meth Desert Nomad Join Date: Jan 2007 Profession: R/	Just like texmod itself, it technically goes against part of the EULA, however just like texmod Anet probably won't care as long as you aren't trying to sell it for something, using them for another game, developing a hack or anything.

Nov 15, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18	#11
Sjeng Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: in my GH Guild: Limburgse Jagers [LJ] Profession: W/	Okay, here's an example of how it would look: I added a copyright notice just in case. I hope Anet can tell me if that's OK.

Nov 15, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56	#13
sykoone Jungle Guide Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Mystical Chaos Profession: E/	Perhaps easier than using texmod to extract the maps, would be to run a no-fog mod and take screenshots as usual. That way you're not pulling the original texture, and should be clear of any legal issues.

Nov 16, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59	#16
malko050987 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Arad, Romania Guild: The Arctic Marauders [TAM] - now recruiting! Profession: R/	And hey, if you're still up for exploring the dungeons, I'm in as well PM me in-game, and if I'm not busy, I'll come along for any of the dungeons except Slavers xD